Curse

Jackell · Jun 02, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50

No, a UAS affects everyone. Read both this thread, the other UAS thread, and people's posts to find out why. There's been some really good arguments made for both sides, but as Airong said in the other thread, there's a million misconceptions on both sides. No ones going to budge, and half the posts seem like people aren't even reading anyone elses posts. To the few that have been and have been evolving hteir debate, I salute you. I know my opinion on this has changed since this started, because I'm reading the arguments, and actually thinking about the statements instead of just "This is my side, I'm sticking to it and not reading anything anyone thinks." Airong, Lazarous, you helped changed my opinion to my current "unlock through pvp" stance, and my change the SoC stance. I've put my new stance that I'm happy with up, and now, I'm done with these threads. They all mutate into people not even thinking about other people opinions, and everyone telling each other that they don't know how to play.

My FINAL stance: A one week unlock through pvp method. It's a learning curve that's much needed by many, especially new players, and it will make pvp better. Capture Elites from other players, and be able to unlock skills, runes, and upgrrades through pvp. That's my stance, just so you all know where I stand.

And now, I'm out of this argument, I'm sick of going in circles.

Zmeya · Jun 03, 2005, 12:34 AM // 00:34

UAS may level the playingfield but it will also level the creative field. If UAS was implemented (though it won't be accordong to A.Net) it would be great for the PvPers for about a month or two until the absolute best combos were ironed out and then it would be a game of sameness. every monk would have the same uber set up, so would every ele, etc.... I guarentee the same people in here whining about this would be bailuing out of the game after maybe 4 or 5 months. If everyone is the same it may be coimpletely skill based but it will defenetly be an arena full of the same things. Once this point is reached why have skills at all since each class would be using the SAME skills, armour, weapons, and runes. At that point everyone might as well be doing 5 dmg to each other. UAS will kill this game.

Quintus · Jun 03, 2005, 12:55 AM // 00:55

If the game is as balanced as everyone is saying it is, there won't ever be a "best combo". So there is nothing to worry about. Also, the PvP in this games is based on counters. So if there ever was an extremely popular build, like the one you are describing, it will quickly the be countered and forgotten. Then the counter to the original build will be countered, and so on.

Edit: added to the post

ipierago · Jun 03, 2005, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

There's one big constraint on PvP characters that isn't really talked about, and that's the desire to not obsolesce RP characters in PvP. Like it or not, a lot of people do want to bring their RP characters into Tombs and feel that they're competitive, not just being blown away by tricked out PvP characters with gear that can't realistically be acquired.

Hence the whole unlocking thing.

This is an excellent point which one needs to fully appreciate before making suggestions on how to change the game. One of the core principles guiding the design of GW appears to be this -

The PvP experience is about taking your PvE character, in whom you have invested a great deal of time, into a PvP environment.

This may not be the game you want, but it appears to be the game A.Net wants to make. When suggesting changes to the game, make sure they don't violate this principle. UAS violates this principle and will never be implemented. Having separate PvE and PvP ladders violates this pricinple and will never be implemented.

- Ian

AirOnG · Jun 03, 2005, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviator

sort of the difference between 2 people at the beach with metal detectors with one going as fast as they can and the only thing that counts is the amount of loot in his bucket

and the other who is enjoying the surf the girls the breeze the sun everything and suddenly jumps when his detector buzzes because he was paying no attention to that part of what he was doing

one is enjoying the experience for itself
the other only sees it as a way to an end

That's actually a very good analogy, Loviator in almost every aspect. It has one flaw though (most analogies do have some flaw by virtue of being analogies). The means to an end presented in the beach example is a realistic constraint guided by actual real world mechanics. One can definitely choose to enjoy this means to an end or to simply treat it as work. The means to an end in guild wars for those who view it as work is a completely artificial barrier for those who want to simply experience the end result of their grinding (a fair PvP experience in most PvPers' case).

Saerden · Jun 03, 2005, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Morrowind had an editor. It allowed you to access (and change) the content of the game. You could place the best armor aviable in the game in the very first "starter chest". While this wasnt "one click away", the 100 mods or so that apeared on the first day and did exactly this,were. It totally ruined the replayability of Morrowind. Noone bothered to actually enjoy it, noone bought the expansions, noone invested huge amounts of time to create mods because the community would just use the editor to check what was in them and get bored after 10mins.
I cant understand the silly PvPlers who want to do this to GW.

Celes Tial · Jun 03, 2005, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiknudStunod

All the UAS button does is unlock the skills for that character. You can not bring the skills you get from a UAS button into pve. The pve players will still get there fun from unlocking skills and runes and the pvp player can completely ignore the pve part of the game.

This is a perfect example of someone who doesnt read other people's posts.
You definitely didnt read mine, and if you did, I'd like to know why you STILL have this opinion. Cause I have a ton of arguments against the points above.

The Pope · Jun 03, 2005, 08:05 AM // 08:05

^ All of those arguments boil down to wanting an unfair advantage.

Celes Tial · Jun 03, 2005, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope

^ All of those arguments boil down to wanting an unfair advantage.

And this boils down to not realizing that those who play more, and take more time to learn their skills and possible combos, will always have an unfair advantage. I'm a casual player myself, but that's life and I dont expect to be on top of the ladder. Why cant people just play for the fun of -playing- instead of constantly demanding to be the best?

Sheesh.

It also boils down to wanting to change a game that many enjoy the way it is. So why change it? No matter what you do, some will be ticked off.

Saerden · Jun 03, 2005, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Celes, from now on you have to play Soccer (or whatever) in a wheelchair. Those who dedicate themself to this great game can get rid of (unlock) this disadvantage.
Alternative: you buy it from welevelj004ca$$.com. It is LAW of MMOs that these sites MUST exist.

I am pretty much aware of the fact that i get owned in chess, soccer or GW, no matter what. With UAS, at least i would know that i wasnt playing in a wheelchair (or with one of my hands tied behind the back). If you cant understand the concept of time-> training vs time -> random task that can be done by a monkey (or Welevelj004ca$$):

Those "Nolifes" that can hone their skills 24/7 by playing this game >>> Those "Nolifes" who own me based on time (cash) spent.

sama · Jun 03, 2005, 10:43 AM // 10:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

Morrowind had an editor. It allowed you to access (and change) the content of the game. You could place the best armor aviable in the game in the very first "starter chest". While this wasnt "one click away", the 100 mods or so that apeared on the first day and did exactly this,were. It totally ruined the replayability of Morrowind. Noone bothered to actually enjoy it, noone bought the expansions, noone invested huge amounts of time to create mods because the community would just use the editor to check what was in them and get bored after 10mins.
I cant understand the silly PvPlers who want to do this to GW.

silly, silly pve'er...you don't understand this game do you?

um seriously, UAS != godlike. there isn't an even playing field in competitive pvp atm and you know what, it won't ever be even at this pace. your morrowind analogy doesn't fit because um, well this isn't morrowind and never was intented to be like morrowind, and we already know what all the skills, runes, and weapon mods are in the game yet ppl still play. not to the mention that UAS doesn't necessarily make you a better player. it just makes the game actually fun to play.

and capturing elites off other players better be a joke. i thought the pokemon craze died with the last millenium.

Saerden · Jun 03, 2005, 10:57 AM // 10:57

The problem is, actually, that peole DO believe that UAS = GODLIKE.

Thats why UAS = lame cheaters.
People enjoyed morrowind with the best armor from the start. I didnt call them cheaters. Its not a cheat if everyone involved has fun.

Seriously, thats why the current situation is so lame. You know what skill xxx is, because you had to study them all in order to decide what skills you grind out (same for runes, but you cant plan which ones you get). There are no secret skills, runes or whatever. If there were any, the PvP crowd would NEVER complain on these forums. They would never talk about "the game that does NOT exist"

Morrowind had UAC (unlock all content) and the content actually was fun / new. Yet it still worked. In GW, the unlockable content is only fun if you can play around with it after you have it. Others may disagree.

(btw i hope that either you or me missed the invisible /sarcasm tag. Morrowind was one of the best games ever.

please dont use the word "intended" in connection with a MMO company (NCSoft). The only thing intented is to make $$$ by ripping people off.)

The Pope · Jun 03, 2005, 11:29 AM // 11:29

I think the guarenteed existence of welevelj004ca$$.com sites is actually a pretty good indicator that there is a problem with the MMO design. Why put in something so horrible that players will pay hard earned real life cash to avoid it?

NiknudStunod · Jun 03, 2005, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celes Tial

And this boils down to not realizing that those who play more, and take more time to learn their skills and possible combos, will always have an unfair advantage. I'm a casual player myself, but that's life and I dont expect to be on top of the ladder. Why cant people just play for the fun of -playing- instead of constantly demanding to be the best?

Sheesh.

It also boils down to wanting to change a game that many enjoy the way it is. So why change it? No matter what you do, some will be ticked off.

People do not settle for anything but trying to be the best. What is the sense of joining a contest against other people and not trying to do your best to beat them. That is where the challenge and fun is for a lot of people. The reason people want the UAS button is this game was suppose to reward skilled players over grinders.

Celes Tial · Jun 03, 2005, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Saerden

Celes, from now on you have to play Soccer (or whatever) in a wheelchair. Those who dedicate themself to this great game can get rid of (unlock) this disadvantage.

Thats a silly comparison, cause I dont know anyone who enjoys playing soccer in a wheelchair, but loads of people like GW unlocking the way it is. Why demand a change if people enjoy it? Either way someone will be unhappy, but less of work for the Devs without a change that might have undesireable effects other than the ones already pointed out by me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope

I think the guarenteed existence of welevelj004ca$$.com sites is actually a pretty good indicator that there is a problem with the MMO design. Why put in something so horrible that players will pay hard earned real life cash to avoid it?

There isnt a problem with the design. There is a problem with human nature. Human beings are lazy bums if they are offered an option to be - why do so many suffer health problems up to death from effects of overweight if it would be more healthy and even enjoyable to do sports if only they tried?

It is also part of human nature to want to be 'better' than others as quickly as possible and with as little effort as possible. It gives them some odd sort of satisfaction. Briefly.

Celes Tial · Jun 03, 2005, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiknudStunod

People do not settle for anything but trying to be the best. What is the sense of joining a contest against other people and not trying to do your best to beat them. That is where the challenge and fun is for a lot of people.

Right, but... lets assume you start playing tennis. Would you expect to win against the world's #1 in tennis during youre first week of playing, and get pissed off if you lose? Doubt it. Instead, you'd start playing against your neighbor or friend, and enjoy beating them once in awhile.

The same goes for GW. People get ticked off because they cant beat the upper ranked guilds, and instantly want to be part of the #1 team. They want all skills and runes unlocked, then would still scream bloody murder because the top guilds likely have more time to play and train than they do.

Why not start to play against smaller, not so high ranked guilds who dont have all skills and equipment unlocked either? Thats what I do... it is a lot of fun.

The Pope · Jun 03, 2005, 01:18 PM // 13:18

So this game was designed to be played by elves?

It's target audience was humans. Therefore, human behaviour can be expected from players. Not taking that into account is a design problem.

If players are meant to have these items, why make getting them boring?

If players are not meant to have these items, why put them in?

NiknudStunod · Jun 03, 2005, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celes Tial

Right, but... lets assume you start playing tennis. Would you expect to win against the world's #1 in tennis during youre first week of playing, and get pissed off if you lose? Doubt it. Instead, you'd start playing against your neighbor or friend, and enjoy beating them once in awhile.

The same goes for GW. People get ticked off because they cant beat the upper ranked guilds, and instantly want to be part of the #1 team. They want all skills and runes unlocked, then would still scream bloody murder because the top guilds likely have more time to play and train than they do.

Why not start to play against smaller, not so high ranked guilds who dont have all skills and equipment unlocked either? Thats what I do... it is a lot of fun.

I wouldn't expect to win against the #1 tennis player. I would expect to start with all my equipment though so that the only thing that seperated me from that #1 player is the skill we had at the game.

Celes Tial · Jun 03, 2005, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope

If players are meant to have these items, why make getting them boring?

The problem is, again, others dont find it boring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NiknudStunod

I wouldn't expect to win against the #1 tennis player. I would expect to start with all my equipment though so that the only thing that seperated me from that #1 player is the skill we had at the game.

Same answer for you. Another tennis player enjoys earning additional equipment to play during the course of playing. And the system is set that way. Isnt it sort of selfish to want to change the system and take the fun from the other tennis player? And who has more of a 'right' to enjoy themselves, you or the other player?

Yep, I realize these examples are getting sorta silly. :P

Grumpy Old Man · Jun 03, 2005, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Perhaps this is a better example:

You just started playing golf, you can purchase any clubs you like that are for sell to the general public, same as anybody else. But Tiger Woods is an "Elite" Golfer, spends lots of time and has endorsments from club makers that provide him unique and custom clubs. You would not expect to start the Pro Tour with your own endorsments and custom clubs, these things must be earned over time and effort on your part. So is the Pro Tour a level playing field? No. Is the Pro Tour Fair? Yes. Does Tiger win every tourney he plays because of his "Club Advantage"? No. A guy with a set of K-Mart clubs can come out on top, if his skills are top notch. I believe this is the kind of structure A-Net was shooting for...not a perfectly level playing field, but a model for fair play where skill is the true deciding factor. And personaly, I think they are closer to this model than anyone gives them credit for.